Crossing Borders, Building Worlds (Live Recording)

Co-Productions are key to ambitious storytelling. As funding tightens and audiences expand, producers are looking offshore for scale and opportunity. This discussion explores what's changing, and how NZ-supported partnerships can go global.

Panel: Poppy Dowle (Film Finances), Michele McDonald (Screen Australia), Emma Slade (Producer, Velvet Moss) and moderator Jennifer Wilton (NZ Film Commission).

Recorded live at the 2025 Spada Conference, held in Auckland, NZ, 20 & 21 November 2025.

www.spada.co.nz

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Transcript

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The Crossing Borders Building Worlds discussion features Poppy Dowle Michele McDonald, Emma Slade, and moderator Jennifer Wilton. It was recorded live at the 2025 Spada Conference. I'd like to introduce our moderator for Crossing Borders and Building Worlds. Would you please, make. Welcome to the stage, Jennifer Wilton. Well, kia ora koutou. I’m Jennifer Wilton, I'm from the New Zealand Film Commission. in the Co-production and Incentives team, and I'm delighted to be moderating this session today on Crossing Borders, Building World's, co-productions Powering partnership. So as funding tightens and audiences expand, producers are increasingly looking offshore for scale and opportunity. Today, we'll be exploring what's changing and how New Zealand supported partnerships can go global. And joining me are three fantastic panelists. We have Poppy Dowle from Film Finances Australasia. We have Michele McDonald, Screen Australia's producer offset and co-production advisor, and we have Emma Slade from Velvet Moss, one of New Zealand's most experienced producers when it comes to official co-productions. And thank you all for being here. As well as hearing from our panelists today, I will also have some time towards the end of the session where you'll be able to ask some questions. So. Right, let's. Timing is tight, so let's start right off with some current trends. Australia, Canada and the UK are New Zealand's regular partners when it comes to, official co-productions across both film and television, making up three quarters of all official co-productions that we've certified at the Film Commission to date. But over the last five years, we've actually seen an uptick in co-production activity with Germany and with Ireland. So handing over to our panel, what shifts in co-production activity are you seeing right now? Are there certain like genres or territories that are emerging as hotspots? And what might the case be that we're seeing that. So, Michele, would you like to go first? Hi, everyone. Yeah, we're in Australia. We're seeing, absolutely a shift more towards looking at partnering with, partnering with international partners, whether that be through an official co-production or an unofficial CoPro. Funding is really hard at the moment. Everywhere. It's hard in Australia. So, you know, Screen Australia and a lot of the producers are really taking the opportunity to look abroad, find the right partners in order to kind of make films that are, you know, global, reaching global audiences, and just tapping into talent pools, outside of Australia as well. We have the same trends in relation to our most common partners. So our most common co-production partner is Canada. We work a lot with the UK. We work a lot with New Zealand. France. And that trend continues. So the co-productions we've seen so far this financial year, we've there are two with the UK and one with Ireland. We're also seeing interest in the Southeast Asian region. So we have a new treaty with India. And we know that there's quite a number of, projects in development, that are potential co-productions, with India under that treaty. And then just generally within the kind of Asian regions, we see Australian producers looking at making films in Indonesia, as more unofficial co-pros. So exploring that area as well. So definitely increasing, the numbers are going up and yeah, it just feels like it's just an essential part of how you can get a film made. Moving forward. Thanks, Poppy. Would you like to come in? Sorry. No no, you go. I would, I echo everything Michele has said. I've been working at Film Finances for 16 years, and when I very first started, the finance plans were the simplest of structures. You know, you'd have your government money, a bit of marketplace, and the tax credit. And you were away. And now it has turned into being this beast of how do you finance things in, you know, the government agencies pool of money is coming down the marketplace isn’t putting that much money in anymore. So a lot of the projects that we have as co-productions, whether it's again, official or unofficial, is purely just like, how do we maximize financing and getting a project up? So there is a lot of that. I did have a quick look at the numbers, because we usually have a couple a year, and this year there might be some of these projects, in post-production. And they shot last year. But I'm going to say this is this year. We currently have nine projects that are co-productions or unofficial co-productions, and five of them are Australian New Zealand ones. So it's actually definitely going in a trend. So. Yeah. And I think the whole entire world wants to do co-productions. I don't think there is one, even though we've obviously got those three territories. But I do think the whole world is up for it. And I think there is an acknowledgment that financing is extraordinarily difficult, and it is a way of potentially opening up other finance, which can finance your project. But I do think that it needs to be said with a word of caution, because it is very nuanced, and I would strongly recommend to anyone who's looking at doing a co-production to research, research, research and not only your partner and where you're going to, but also in your home territory. You really need to understand how the rebate works. And what you are able to bring to the table, because they will ask you and they'll expect you to be the expert in your own region. So it's super important that you really understand. So when you tell them that you're you're going down a pathway that makes sense for the two of you because you can go quite a way down a pathway and then you realize it's actually not going to work. The other thing is the reason why those territories in particular are so popular here, is it's all to do with their rebate. I mean, we've got our rebates high. It's 40%. But, you know, it's not as high in the UK. It's high, but it's not as high. And it's been raised. The same in Ireland. Australia is the same as us. But you really need to look at that because there are other charges that come in. When you do a co-production, you have to do double ups. So you do double ups of legals, of accounting, of producer fees and so on and so forth. And so you need to make sure that you don't create a false economy. Because you may find that your the hole in your budget actually expands by making it a Co-Pro and not reducing it. So you really need to to think that through, and you need to be able to bring something more than just the rebate to the table. And same for your, partner that you're going with. And I, you really, really need to make sure that you know your partner very, very well because the risk for producers is immense. And that's not getting better. It's getting worse. And the harder and the tighter it becomes and the budgets are really tough to hit. You are, you have huge liability that you're taking on and you're only as strong as your weakest partner. So, you really need to think about that, because if the other side stuffs it up, it will impact you in a potentially quite a severe way. I’ve sort of said it all now really. That's what I just really wanted to get that out about co-productions because they are fabulous and being able to work with, international partners. But I just think that's really important information because it is nuanced, and you must understand that nuance before you broach that. And I would probably encourage someone to if you haven't done it before, work with someone who has. So you can because there's quite a bit of threading that you have to do to not make the road less bumpy. Yeah, I'd probably just add to that Emma as well. I think you do still need to look at co-productions, whether it's official, unofficial, holistically, and I think it needs to work creatively as well. So it absolutely helps with the finance. And it's one of the key drivers. But, I feel like there needs to be that creative, gelling as well. And you know, the earlier you're setting up a Co-Pro in development, I think the better. And there are some films that are just what we would call a natural Co-Pro, and that might be, and we'll just keep using Australia and New Zealand as an example. But there's an Australian writer and, a New Zealand director, and, you know, it's a story that's going to work in both marketplaces. And you're doing the work in both territories. So something like that. Is what we would call a natural Co-Pro. But it doesn't have to be like that Co-Pros all, all shapes and sizes, like any film. But I think it's just bearing in mind I always see it as a creative partnership as well as a finance. And as Emma said, it's just finding the right partner. Is so important, whether it's official or unofficial, because, there's just so much at stake, and there's a lot of trust involved. But there's just so many amazing producers out there that, I think there's plenty of good ones to choose from. And coming back to your question about genres and what's what the trends are, I think, I mean, generally speaking at the moment is a big push on horror, or they might be tapering off a little bit. Well, certainly in the film world I can't speak for TV. But but I do think actually any genre is kind of up for it. But it's all to do with the story. And it is important because when you understand the other countries rules and regulations, like we have our rules and regulations and what things are culturally significant for us may not be so important to the other country. So you need to really work out what that is, the hoops that you have to jump through to be able to get your own funding, what hoops they have to jump through. Because then you work out what stories might make sense for a co-production, because some will and there'll be others. You go oh there's that's just not going to work. So you have to really think about the story that you're trying to tell as well. Poppy, I've got a question for you. Can you share a success story where a co-production unlocks scale or global reach? What made it work, and what does a successful co-production look like from a bond company's point of view? Oh, okay. I think I just want to segue also back to what you were just saying. You know, there's a lot of finance solutions that come from the co-productions, and everyone sort of looks at the tax credits to go, okay, ticks that box. We get that. The other, you know, massive contributor that makes it even more appealing is when you can get government funding from within that country. But what's really crucial is that I think you're I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the key, key part here is that you have to develop that project together before you go for the funding. So you can't just be like, I've been trying to make this work for for so long, and then, oh, maybe the solution is to make it a Co-Pro and tack it on together. Yes, you can get the tax credit from the other country, but you're not going to get that extra government funding, which makes it really, really appealing on your finance structure to take the pressure off. So if you if you're thinking of doing a Co-Pro, if it does make a natural fit for the creative, start early together, don't try to piece it together after the fact. I would say that's probably the key thing. Yeah. It's interesting though, because I've got we've got a couple of projects that have had finance fall out or like we've got one project that a producer tried to get up for about ten years on our books, and I was just like, oh. And interestingly enough, that person was a producer in Australia. And they, they relocated back to Ireland. And then it's it was kind of like that opening of the mind of actually, like, I know both countries so well and, and that understanding of what each country can bring to the party. And they ended up making that an official co-production. And so after like seeing it on my books for ten years and it finally coming to fruition and you're like, oh, and it makes complete sense. Like, you know, they did have to rework the script to make it work for all those kind of that combination. But to me, like, that's success. You get to make your film. That's probably a big one. The other ones, it's interesting because they're, like unofficial Co-Pros. We had one, that's just been finished up earlier this year, which was shot in the Philippines. And it's really interesting because it's it's not an official co-production, obviously. And you would look at it at face value and say, this is a Filipino film. It's all in Tagalog, their local language. It's there is all the cast are Filipino. But it ticked the significant Australian content box to get the Australian funding. You know, it had a Filipino Australian writer, director, all the producers and everything else. So it's the there's also projects where you think, oh, this, you know, can I actually utilize the different countries finance and look closely at the guidelines because I think, Michele, you can talk to these like there's some projects which you think, oh how's that Australian? But actually you, you, you tick enough boxes on the guidelines to make it count. And that's a beautiful little film. You know, all the heads of department went to the Philippines and they, you know, and they're a minority financing partner. But you get so much bang for buck in some of these countries that it's amazing. Like the the whole shoot was done there. And that's going to you know, I think that's another phenomenal thing where you go that's an Australian film set like and one of the very first ones I did as well was shot in Thailand. And again, same thing like you go, well, I'm not sure how that's Australian, but when you look at it, it ticks all the boxes. So I think there's multiple ways that you can look at co-productions. Sometimes they're not as obvious as you would think, whether it's official or unofficial. And one other thing I think is for consideration is that the reason we do have so many co-producing partners is obviously like English as a language. It opens a lot of doors. So I think consolidating, you know, that, you know, 2 or 3 English speaking countries, you can all pile in with your finance structure and really maximize how you can do it. But I'm probably going off of the question now. Oh, sorry. You got to stop me when I'm rambling. You’ve actually bought up a Really good point about, you know, official versus unofficial co-productions, and I'd really love to hear from the panel. Like, what are the risks and benefits of each of those, you know, what do you need to keep in mind when you're choosing whether to go the official route or unofficial route? Yeah. I mean, this is what I talk to producers about all the time. So in Australia, when we talk about unofficial, if producers are looking at accessing the producer off-set, which is our national rebate for an Australian film, to access that, you can either be an official Co-Pro made under an MOU or treaty, or you pass the significant Australian content test. And the SAC test, we call it SAC. It's it's a holistic test and it's quite broad. So it doesn't have to be Australian on screen. I would say one of the key things is that it's creatively driven by Australians. And I wasn't involved in setting that up at all. But I think that the idea was we don't want to just restrict Australian films to be, you know, koalas on screen and that kind of thing. It's it's Australians looking at the world and, you know, interpreting stories, as well. So, the SAC test is very broad and you can be an unofficial Co-Pro, which means you could be partnering, you know, within New Zealand producer or in a New Zealand creative, and maybe then you are, still eligible for the, you know, the Australian producer would still be eligible for the producer off set without going down the official pathway. And I mean, there's just different risks and rewards, and it really depends on the structure of the film. Some films won't pass the SAC test, because you've got, you know, a New Zealand, producer and a New Zealand director, etc. and I, you know, and I can talk to producers and we have those conversations and go, that's, that's not strong for SAC, but let's have a look at Co-Pro and that might be the better fit. So I think it really depends on the circumstances. Benefits of Co-Pro is that you're triggering the local rebates and you considered a national film. So kind of like what Poppy was saying. You can apply to Screen Australia for content funding New Zealand for the same. You can get state agency funding. So it does kind of unlock benefits, as well. And it's Australian film for distribution etc.. But there is another layer of paperwork involved. It's another form. And there are guardrails that you have to work in as an official Co-Pro. And as Emma said, you really need to understand what they are. And I think for producers interested, you know, there's a lot of support at Screen Australia and the New Zealand Film Commission. If you're looking at going down that route. You absolutely as an official Co-Pro, your costs will go up. You really do need a lawyer. You need a good film lawyer. If you're a Co-Pro, you need a really good agreement with your co-producer. So that's one of the number one tips is, is you can't do this without a lawyer, a film lawyer. So that does increase the budget. So unofficial Co-Pro. There's less paperwork you can do that. You know, you're not that extra lawyer, but I guess you're constricted by what the significant Australian content test is. In Australia we’ll see Production companies that have a slate of films. Okay, this one is going to be great. Co-Pro, this one, Okay. We might be able to do unofficial. This one's just all Australian. So producers will just have a slate of films. And I think it's just finding the right pathway, where you're going to maximize your creative and your finance. And it's the same in New Zealand. But the only thing to remember is that applying for a co-production and applying to the NZFC for funding are two different things. So the NZFC will have their requirements and cultural remit that they have to do, and then the Co-Pro is something else. So if you're you just need to make sure that if you are wanting to go to NZFC funding as well, that you make sure that you're jumping through their hoops, it's really important. Don't just assume that it's the same thing because it's not. And the other thing is, is that if you like, Australia's very lucky to have Michele here, New Zealand is very lucky because we've also got a wonderful Co-Pro unit, which Jennifer is part of. And we also have Mark and we also have Chris. So they're really great answering any questions and helping guide people. Yes. Because we also there are two ways to access the 40% is either through a cultural test or it's through an official Co-Pro. And if you do an unofficial Co-Pro, it's basically a cultural test. It's essentially the same thing. Yeah. So what are some of the common pitfalls that you've seen when it comes to official co-productions, and how can producers effectively avoid these? Hopefully. I know I've got a long list, but but I want to be really positive because it's just it's such a great thing. I just think it's who you work with, like Emma was saying. And whenever I talk to Australian producers, you know, before I come and do a panel like this, or if I'm, at an industry event, it's, it's one of the first things is just finding the right partner, and taking the time to find the right partner. And it is, I think, a longer game co-production. So, when I ask people, how did you meet, you know, your co-producer, how did you guys meet? You know, it really is about traveling. It's about going to markets. It's about doing your research. You know, what kind of content is, you know, such and such production company making. Okay, that aligns with my values. I'll reach out to them. But it is, it's traveling and, you know, just meeting people along the way and, and chasing those opportunities. And I think that's a longer game. And, this is so boring. But Emma just said it, so that's good. But it is just understanding the processes. And I think there is a lot of bureaucracy involved when you're doing co-productions. But you know, it can unlock millions of dollars. So hang in there and, you know, persevere with it. But and just understanding that the what happens. So if you're an official Co-Pro, the first thing you do is, is you want to make sure your co-production eligibility is in place. So you're going Co-Pro - sorry this is how it is for us Co-Pro. Then you apply to our content funding team for content funding. And then you'll you'll come in and get the rebate. So for us it's in that order. But yeah not everyone you know people might be coming in at or into us for the rebate. And it's like, well, hang on, we've got to put that aside. We've got to do your Co-Pro first. So you absolutely just need to understand the process. And again, we can help you. And it's it is very bureaucratic. I'm just going to say it think about it from the beginning. Trying to retrofit a co-production is really hard. And in fact, most of the treaties say you can't. Most of the treaties will say you have to have that provisional approval before you start shooting. Which is, I think, really helpful for everybody because then you're you're not kind of backtracking. There are absolutely guardrails that you need to work within. And I'd say one of the, you know, pitfalls is if you've got, a director who wants, you know, you're making an Australia and New Zealand Co-Pro, but your director wants this amazing US DOP. It's really important for your key creatives to understand that that just can't happen under a Co-Pro and that under a co-production, you've got to work with with people from the two territories. You can have cast from, nonparty. In most of the treaties, usually that means American cast and that helps with financing. But really the crew usually would be from the two territories. And so I had just having everyone just be on board with that, I guess, I think is, is really important. Just transparency and trust with your producer. And looking at it as the one production, I guess I've seen, we've seen Co-Pros where the Australian partner may not be across the expenditure of the co-producer. And it's shooting in another territory and then it comes to post and there's been a bit of an overflow and all of a sudden there's less money in post. So, again, when I talk to production accountants, people like Entertainment Partners in Sydney who do a lot of Co-Pros. They always will set it up as one global budget that both producers are overseeing. And that there's just a lot of transparency in, you know, who's spending what and where. And also and I think just psychologically as well, just seeing it as the one production, like not two separate kind of productions is helpful. And I think, again, just having really trusted advisors, and I'm not spruiking the lawyers, but yeah, getting a good lawyer, an accountant. And again, we all would always recommend if you're embarking on a Co-Pro for the first time, you know, just maybe it's worth getting an EP who's done one before. An executive producer and helping guide you through it. That can be really helpful as well. And if you do all that, it's it's fine. Yeah. If you that's what it is. I think it's just there's just nuances to it. And I just think there's nuances to making a film whether you're a Co-Pro or not. Right. So I think it's just getting your head around it. And I think Australia and New Zealand as a territory with territories are really lucky that they're I think there's a lot of support within the agencies, for helping producers kind of navigate it better.(unclear) I'll just elaborate on a couple of the things. I think as both of Emma and Michele have mentioned, like, understand the parameters on which the other country has to operate as well. Quite frequently we will see co-productions where you might be doing the, the whole shoot in another country, and then the post-production is being done in Australia, for example. And there is a little bit that does tend to be a bit of a tendency to put a bit of blinkers on to say, well, we're just handling the post. We don't have to be that invested in what's happening during the shoot. But there is, the very, very delicate balance when it comes to in order to get your provisional, co-production certificate, you have to demonstrate that you've got, a percentage split on your financing and then a percentage split on your expenditure. And it is that thing where if you're not both both countries, or if you've got a three way co-production, if you're that mad. But, you know, you have to be. Yeah. You both have to have eyes on the ball for both countries. You can't just set and forget and then be surprised when you inherit something when it comes back to your country. So I would say production lawyers. Great. Especially if you've got production lawyers who have done co-productions before, because I think they are so full of knowledge that can help guide producers as well in that world. And even for the, you know, the trend at the moment is that there's so the finance models, even if it's a straightforward film, is looking at so much international money now that there's all these implications and complexities that come with that. And having somebody who has experience with that will have a better be able to guide you, better to avoid some of these pitfalls. You can only move as fast as your slowest lawyer or partner. And there is timing that has to be considered. Like for example, so I'm just going to speak for Emma here. She's got a Co-Pro at the moment between Australia and New Zealand. And you know in order to get your provisional, both countries have to sign off on their provisional certificate to say they both agree it's a Co-Pro, otherwise it's meaningless. And the New Zealand Film Commission sorry Michelle, no offense, but they move a bit faster. So Noted! So you know, they're like, we've got our provisional from, you know, the letter from New Zealand. And it's like well no you've got to wait till Australia does theirs as well. You know, like it's you, you really have to be embedded in the other country to understand all of those little, idiosyncrasies which impact you in a huge way. And I think perhaps one of why one of the, the Irish Australian co-production that we've got at the moment has gone so well is because the Irish producer is so fluent in the Australian market that he understands it inside out. And so it's the ideal thing that you understand, down to the nitty gritty about how both countries work is your your best place to be? I think, and every project we do, I learn about another tax incentive in another country and all the quirks and how to make some fun sort of spreadsheets up. But, what else would I say? I think just the complexity of contracting as well, you know, like the average project you would hope could be contracted in eight weeks, 8 to 12 weeks. But co-Pro’s just they're beasts, to to navigate that many parties. And just the cultural differences of how people operate, you know, if you want to be doing a project which is contracting in January, you know that Australia and New Zealand, all the lawyers are having their summer holidays, so nothing happens. And then equally, northern hemisphere are having their summer holidays in the middle of the year so things drag it out. So it's all those little things that that can have an impact. But yes, get to know who your partner is. Really get to know them. You're about to get into bed with them, for a long time. And you gotta ride that wave. I'd also want to say about when you do a production schedule that because it's really important to time out when everything will happen. Because closing does take longer. And generally speaking, New Zealand is faster than anywhere else. And generally speaking the Film Commission is faster. So but this in a way is irrelevant because you can only go as fast as your slowest partner. So you need to build that time in. So when you do your production schedule, make sure you allow and you map out what closing will take. And then you do your prep, shoot, post and your delivery, but also go when you do your production schedule, go beyond that. Work out when the money will come back because Australia takes a long time to come back. Much longer than oh, not much longer, but longer than New Zealand. Canada takes ages, and if you're paying interest on the money, you have to sit and wait. I mean, it is great that we have an interim. So if you're shooting here, your bulk of your money goes out, you can do the interim. And that's a bit of a life saver, to be honest. But you are still tied up with the bit of cash that you might be waiting to come back. So you really need to understand what the other side has to do and how they get their money back. And, you know, you can't get your money back in until the co-production is actually officially or signed off. So really understand the tail end, because it may impact you, and you have to make sure you allow enough money in your budget to, to actually pay for it. And I it's getting into the weeds. But if people are genuinely interested in it, that's what you've got to do. I could do a whole subject on foreign exchange right now, but I would say, you know, like New Zealand has the magic. You guys have had this introduced as an interim, rebate thing that is that changes game changer. You know, what do there are other countries where you don't have to take out the loan because they actually cashflow it. So I think South Africa, unless that's changed, and in Ireland they will actually be putting the money down. You're not paying for the interest rates on that. Which again, another massive, game changer. And when you're looking at taking out loans, you also need to look at that timing and say, well, if we can get X amount of money upfront without loans from that country, you know, can you be transferring that money across to the other country rather than taking out a loan? And that's where I will stop with the foreign exchange. Because sending money back backwards and forwards is wild. But it's, you know, you just the finance plans and cash flows. And you want to set up a, a currency account in the other country for yourself. So if money comes in and you're going to be sending it right back, which is there's a bit more detail than that, but just to know, it's helpful to set up a current the other country you're working with account their currency in New Zealand. And they do the same for you in New Zealand dollars. So you don't have to lose currency. But there's lots of tricks to do around currency that you need to also be have your eyes open with. But we have brilliant lawyers here. And get yourself a great, accountant as well because you're going to need them. Yeah. Thank you everyone. I'm just been amazing insights and I'm conscious that we're getting towards the end of the session now. Yep. Getting the countdown. So I am going to give you one last opportunity to to say a few things. Maybe just one word. So, you know, looking ahead, 1 or 2 is looking ahead for the next 5 to 10 years. What region or area, what territory do you see the biggest opportunity for growth when it comes to official co-production? So you can answer that question or, if you would, to sum up the future of co-productions in just one word, what would it be? So you can do either a territory or. I'm not going to do the one word I can't do one word answers. I would say the trend I'm loving at the moment is the New Zealand, Australia co-production. It is a real natural fit because we are so similar in, rebates. I'm sure somebody wrote one and did a copy and paste, But anyway, that's all great. But my point being, say, now I've lost. Oh, no, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we're very similar. So but the one advantage with what seems to be making the most sense at the moment is that you would shoot in New Zealand, but then take your post-production over to Australia, because each state in Australia has a post-production incentive where you can get 10%, or if you go to Western Australia, 20 or 20, she lying to you is 20% up to 20%. All right. I don't know. There's more. But yeah it's a good balance. Michelle I'm going to say one word. Relationships. I think it's the future. And I think co-productions are essential. Yeah, I think they're going to be part of our financing model going forward. So we all need to really understand it. But they're not always the right way. They just something else in your toolkit. So understanding it, is important. I think. You great. Thank you. And do we have time for one question? 1 or 2 questions from the floor? Great. I think I can see one over there. Oh, yeah. Oh, I don't think I'm gonna need that. Emma I'd love you to share what you shared yesterday about minority co-productions in this. Room. Sure. This is interesting. I mean, because you're completely right, shooting in New Zealand and then doing post in Australia is is a great thing because there are there is a PDV grant which is on top of their, rebate, which is awesome. And then sometimes you might have more cash on top of it, which we were lucky to do in Western Australia. But I do believe that it should be reciprocal because I think that it once you step, you go through such a. Huge. Journey with your, the partner that you're working with, that once you've established that working relationship and you still love each other at the end of it, hopefully, that you’d be willing to go back and have another go at it and do another project. So generally speaking, with a co producer - not all of them, but the the co-production partners that I work with, I do want to do business again, but I do think it needs to be reciprocal. And it is, challenging if you're doing if you're going to shoot in New Zealand, and post in Australia, that's all good and Well. But if you want to flip it and you shoot in Australia and you post in New Zealand, we need to be able to offer something more than just the rebate, because Australia already has the 40 percent. So if we can only offer 40%, that means nothing to them. All it is is there's no incentive. It just is just additional costs. So you need to find other money to bring to the table. And I would suggest that, maybe putting in a little application to the NZFC, and, but you'd have to, make sure it's relative to what the ask is and what you're, you know, being a minority co-production partner. Or you may find equity from here or whatever you may find, but you just have to be mindful of that for minority Co-pros to be able to do a reciprocal type arrangement. Great. Do we have any other questions out there? I can't see any. Right. Well thank you very much for your insights today. There been I've learned a lot. Been really great talking to you and everyone else for joining us today and enjoy the rest of the conference.