30/30: In Conversation with Paul Wiegard (Live Recording)

Paul Wiegard, Co-Founder and CEO of Madman Entertainment, in conversation with Dr David Court, as he reflects on 30 years of Australia and New Zealand’s most progressive indie film distributor. 

Discover the story behind Madman Entertainment’s evolution, from releasing over 35 Oscar®-nominated films to launching DocPlay,  a dedicated documentary streaming platform. 

Recorded live during the 2025 Spada Conference.

www.spada.co.nz
www.madman.co.nz
www.docplay.com

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Transcript

30/30: 0:02

In Conversation with Paul Wiegard was recorded live at the 2025 Spada Conference. Welcome back, to this final session for this morning, which is, another In Conversation with Paul Wiegard, who those of you who were here yesterday Will know is the co-founder and CEO of Madman Entertainment. And to lead that conversation, I'd invite you to just put your hands together and make welcome Doctor David Court as well. Good morning. I'm going to kick it off here. And I think David might have seen the sizzle, but we're going to run a little sizzle that we played at the Australian International Movie Convention a few weeks ago and just runs two minutes. And I'll talk a little bit about what the sizzle is, just to give you a bit more of a sense of, I guess the Madman business and, you know, the films that we seek to represent. Loud Our gift to you. You need coolin', baby, I'm not foolin', I'm gonna send you back to schoolin', Way down inside honey, you need it, I'm gonna give you my love I'm gonna give you my love. Wanna Whole Lotta Love Wanna Whole Lotta Love Wanna Whole Lotta Love Wanna Whole Lotta Love You know you’re quite handsome.(MUSIC) You've been coolin', baby, I've been droolin', All the good times I've been misusin', Way, way down inside, I'm gonna give you my love, I'm gonna give you every inch of my love, Got a whole lotta love So that's a snapshot of the films. I fucking should know about that line by now, but that's a snapshot of the films I've been working on over the last sort of 12 months. And it's a bunch of films you not familiar with coming up for the next six months? Just realized it probably should have been a few more of the Kiwi films and a bit of an update on that front. I think Pike River is still sitting number four at the box office. And I love the work at the, our local team here have been, putting into that film. But just to flavour that sizzle, just wanted to sort of, you know, give you a sense that, you know, the films that we're looking to represent are sort of director led, they push cinema forward, they’re critically acclaimed. They have purpose, they ask the question is there positive social change. They emotionally engage. We really want, you know, audiences to feel. And it's a, it's a it's such a creep criteria to the films that we, we seek to represent. And, you know, hopefully if you get a sense from what you just seen, a yes, that looks like a Madman film and you get a sense of the why, why we would want to represent it. So just the, the just the, the underlying conceiving of a film, we need to really sort of land on it and say yes we’re the right people to try and represent that project. And we know the why, why, why it's here and why exists. I guess the last little comment, just in sort of the set up, is just love the idea of making the niche sort of mainstream. I guess everything's a niche to point just the size of that niche. So very much speaking from the the independent film perspective. Thanks, Paul. So that's why we're here. And, if anyone's got any questions, actually, Paul won't remember this, but, we're here because this is the we're coming up on the 30th anniversary of Madman's creation, and I first clocked Paul about 25 years ago, when he became the distributor of the animated Leunig a project I was involved with. And what I clocked at the time was what a remarkable entrepreneur he was. And now, of course, 25 years later, well, 30 years later, we have this extraordinary body of proof, 35 Oscar nominated films released by Madman, including films like Parasite Anatomy of a fall, The The Zone of Interest. EP’d, this is extraordinary. More than 50 films, including Pike River Tinā, of course. Mountain High Ground. And along the way has sort of made this extraordinary transition from the world of VHS and DVD to the world of streaming with the launch of Doc Play in 2016. Paul is co-chair of AIDC. He's on the board of Screenrights He's a force in our industry. So I'm I'm delighted to have this opportunity to throw a few questions at him. And I thought I might start with, today's news, which is we're going to hear who's bidding for Warner Brothers Discovery today. And I wondered what you think, Paul, about where Hollywood is at. And are we at the beginning of the decline? Are we that, you know, have we passed Peak Hollywood? And what do you think that might mean for independent producers? What a doozy? It's a good - like we thought we were past, peak oil, but we still use too much of it, don't we? So, that's interesting, right? Like, if you look at the history of Hollywood, every one of those major studios have had so many different owners over the, over the journey. And it's just this incredible list. If you just jump on the Wikipedia page and, and it's sort of passed from hand to hand to hand. So I don't know, you know, look, we do we need the studios. The studios provide the infrastructure and scale and, investment into, exactly that, the infrastructure to which supports the independent, industry as well. You know, the top 25 feature films, would account for about 60% of the box office. Just think about that for a moment. And the top 50 films account for about 80% of the gross box office. So of the other, 600? 950 richly, films that hit our screens over the course of the year, you know, grappling over the last 20%. So it's it's an ecosystem. We need the studios to be healthy to a point, but it's all it's all the trades and everything else. It sort of sits under it, under those organizations. But, you know, it's interesting point in time, most of them have connected to streaming platforms, and they're all of turned the corner and all yielding, you know, profits as to whether their yielding as much in terms of margins. That's another question Comcast Universal's probably on the other one which is for is probably struggling amongst them. But they're all have a path forward there. So, I think this is another way there's there's always another billionaire entering the marketplace. But on on and upside on the positive and all of that, does it mean more opportunities for, local territories and independent filmmaking whilst this is all playing out? You know, it's clear that since, gosh, you know, ten years ago there were 50 blockbuster films. a year. And in Australian terms, that means, films grossing sort of more than 10 million at the box office. And now only about 30 odd films a year are being put into the marketplace. So opportunity, I do note that the Roman Empire took about 250 years to actually decline all the way to a fall, so maybe Hollywood's got a way to go yet. Just out of curiosity, if it did decline and then fall, where do you think would be the new epicenter of filmmaking? Jesus. Yeah. YouTube. Well, it's happening like it is a content creator environment to a point you know, it's interesting here, here, you know, in this part of the world, you know, we we sit there as an English language territory, largely, you know, competing against the UK, the US, and, you know, all that cultural imperialism and all those films that we are up against on a day to day basis in terms of finding, finding markets, you know, to for that to slowly decline. Will we see the, the rise of other cinema from around the world? I don't I feel like we're already seeing it now, like in in E in Oz at the moment. I mean, it's sort of been going around, amongst a number of the trades, the Indian cinema or cinema from the subcontinent is out grossing, Australian cinema at the box office in our local market. So that's not Hollywood. So, yes. So there's opportunities. I mean, I think, I think I don't think, independent cinema in Australia or New Zealand has ever relied on, on Hollywood. In fact, if it may mean return of some of our stars, that maybe a positive. I'll take that. Just thinking now at a time when when it feels like horizons are closing in where we're looking around and putting your entrepreneurial hat on, which if you ever take it off, where are the opportunities, do you think? Where do you see opportunities? Like in the genres or types of film, or how things have financed? I think most interesting producers for mine because we were at a Spada are those that are across a whole portfolio of activities, you know, could be even from, from, from live events through to just participating in the role of event management, putting on entertainment of one kind or another. So I just think your ability to build your own audiences, collaborate with people from all around the world, it's so much more simpler than what it once was. So I was just I mean, I think too often we lean back and don't take enough risks. I think in, this part of the world. Okay. So more risk taking? These are tough questions David. I'll try and get a bit softer. I only Talk from an independent, you know, distributors perspective. Paul in the last few years has been quite an active player in public policy in Australia. And I guess to some extent here too. And of course, we've had the great victory of finally of quotas in Australia applied to streaming platforms. So just now thinking with that public policy perspective, Paul, where do you see is the next area for attention? Where do we need to put our efforts now? Do you think? It's funny I did a, a Masters under, David about 12 years ago. And the provocation at the time was he he asked me a couple questions. He said are you interested in doing any further education? I said, I don't have time. And he said, what do you really care about? And I started talking about a bunch of things which were I didn't really understand the terminology, public policy. And then I realized I knew nothing. I couldn't really make a sound argument or triangulate arguments in terms of, the independent space, public policy and, and other institutions. So hence I went off and did this sort of Masters. So it's really important as an industry And I must say, I'm not au fait enough with what Spada’s key priorities are at the moment But, you know, there's lots of regulations in Aus at the moment that do need to be bedded down, particularly around the streaming side of it. I'm on the fence, you know, in terms of what we've seen to date, in terms of how the metric, how it's actually going to be calculated and, and enforced. But, you know, I, I there’s so many different, areas of public policy that need attention, you know, out, our, our institutions in Aus they are desperately underfunded. And I think that needs attention. And it's been a long time since they have had attention and, you know, good public policy is long term policy. And we haven't had a stable government for a long time, which we now have in Aus. I can't speak to NZ necessarily, but it it it's a great opportunity now to bed down some, some, some more longer term sort of arts policy and screen policy. I think, at large, possibly including annexing the South Island and making it part of Australia. That could be one part of it. But, you know, I, we speak a lot about sort of trying to attract, private investment. And we have these offsets in place in terms of, you know, production expenditure. I love that, clearly nothing like self-interest, but I'd love that to be extended to, the, the print and advertising expenses that we put in to support, our local films. So that's a simple idea. Is we're spending an extra hundred. We know that 30% can come back, and it's obviously it can be acquitted and it's all cash out. But that sort of money is expense that there's a rebate on that, that could also be used depending on the, you know, the performance of the film as an accelerator to returns to private investment and, and helps within the risk management of a for from a distributor perspective. But all the stakeholders. Okay that's a good start. Really dry like keeping talking about public policy. No no no that's good. We'll take that. The Doc Play story. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about how that came about and what you've learned about streaming from the from building that Doc Play service. Who knows about Doc Play? Okay. One getting there. You guys,who know about it talk to the others. so it turns ten next year. And actually that came about through, we had a anime lab at the time, which is like a dedicated platform for, anime and lots of, as a juggernaut, really. We were able to grow that particular anime lab platform to about 350,000 subscribers in Australia, which subsequently sort of sold that to the, the Sony Group. And you now know it, it's sort of Crunchyroll, but it provided the, I guess the, the white label platform from which we could build Doc Play. And the idea of Doc Play was we were really finding it difficult to find a home and a second window for the films and the documentaries that we were representing, we had nowhere else to go. We at that stage, ten years ago, we had about 200, films in our library, of which about 25, and were Oscar nominated winners. So we had this incredible, I guess, building block to then present. And then from there we said, look, we don't know whether it's going to be just features or, docu series and whether it can be just sort of library and just be a really fantastic curated content of the very best storytelling that we could find from around the world. That was just the best first basic idea, and it was part funded by, Australia's, Screen Australia's Enterprise Fund at that time, which was an initiative to bring about sort of, you know, it was a, it was a fund that we then matched. They put in about 400,000, which we also, matched to sort of invest into this new sort of concept. And, actually that ended up being that the thesis that I put together for your, for your course David. And then, we we paid that back, and now we here we are sort of, ten, years on almost, and we have about 50,000 subscribers and 35 to 40% of that is Australian and New Zealand content. So what the learnings, our audiences want to hear and see and experience local stories. And it's very distinct in terms of the share of, local voices on in that platform versus any other platform that is out there. It's clear to me also that you have those of streaming. It's very lean back. People want curation. They have this sort of I dunno, decision making paralysis as to what is next. So the ability for us to help lead them from A to B is just so critical. And we we we we need to put more time to that. We know that sort of variety matters. The one thing about actually streaming platforms as a business, which is really interesting, it's the most forecastable business I’ve ever been in. I know within, well we know as a group, from month to month, within about 2 or 3% where it's going to land for the following month. And it sort of moves, fortunately, slowly up. But it makes it interesting. It becomes a very investable product that we're, working in. So it's hugely attractive in that front. And one thing I've come to learn is, you know, original, programing and exclusive programing is ultimately critical to provide that point of difference in a streaming platform. So, it's interesting, right? Just, can a niche platform sit in amongst these enormous juggernauts, these incredible tech, Goliath's that are out there, you know, it's sort of proving that there is I think one of the big challenges for Doc Play over the coming years ahead will be, whether it ultimately is then bundled, with, other platforms. One thing which we have done in Aus, we've also put together a, a linear channel on Foxtel, which is like the equivalent of Sky, here. And that's been great for just general awareness. But again, it's you realize very quickly creatures are people are creatures of habit. And they want to know, they want to be they want to be programed, they want to be told what to see. And in some ways it's it's interesting. I've always, on a personal level, been always a lot more curious and put together my own lists and sort what I wanted to see based on what I've read and I realized actually, that's not that's not the majority. Right. I could carry on. I'm sure. One of the emerging themes this of this conference is know, partnership and connection. And, I think about the, you know, the ditch that's that we keep you and I keep crossing to come here. And I know you've got lots of reasons to be here. Wife's from Nelson, so, she lives in Australia, but she's also. So I'm wondering, you know, my question is, is it time to ditch the ditch? Is there a case for coming still closer than we already are. And I'm aware of the long and checkerboard history of closer relations. But is it time to revisit it? You gotta prounounce it correctly ditch the dutch? Thank you. I think the it's surprising to me how difficult it is. Not if it's like it's more challenging the Cco-Pros between Australia and New Zealand or more challenging than they probably need to be we did one a number of years ago for Spookers, I thought gosh it's such should be such a simple project. But it wasn't. And at the moment we are working on Crowded House, which for most Australians will claim that band to be their own. Just like Pavlova and everything else. And that was actually more expensive than what Personally, I anticipated for that to be put together. And so another quirk is like Withholding Tax. Why the hell are we paying Withholding Tax between the two territories? Again that's, that's one for the fun for Treasury. If anyone's from Treasury here. But, you know, we, again, I can only really speak from Madman's perspective. We have a dedicated office here. We have a small team but highly engaged with a large team also supporting their activities here in NZ. So to be really to be in both territories, to be in both territories, you have to be in both territories, you can't be doing out of Singapore or, you know, somewhere else. So I, you know, I think there's so much, alignment of interests, there’s significant cultural differences, and rightfully so, but there's so much that we have in common. And, and I would say more broadly, when we look at when Madman looks to represent any local, films, from this part of the world, you know, we want to achieve results that are, at the same level in terms of just revenue, in Aus as what is achieved in NZ. And that's been largely the case, you know, from Hunt for the Wilderpeople to Tīna. And we hope to do the same with, Pike River. Okay. Paul, of course, is the founder of Madman, but he's also, This is interesting. He's the re-founder of Madman because there was a point when the business was sold to a company called Funtastic, and that went on for a few years. And then Paul rounded up a posse of investors and bought it back from Funtastic. And my question is, in that period when you had been bought out and could have walked away. Was there another path that tempted you, or were you just drawn inexorably back to Madman? It feels like counseling now. I think, it's a bit like it's the real challenge is sort of, you know, when you've sold your home and then you have to you think, actually, that's a really nice family home. We might come back, go back and buy it. So you wonder It's rarely something that's done. And the reasons why we sold the business in the first instance. In the first instance, it yes, it was a large cheque, but it also, we thought, would liberate us from doing a whole bunch of operational things that we weren't that interested in at the time from, you know, warehousing, accounts and all the rest. We're very fortunate. We kept when we were part of a public group, we were kept isolated and left to our own devices, largely. And we weren't suddenly, suddenly, like a horse put into a really large, stable. And the culture broken. Wasn't that that wasn't the case at all. In fact, what it did do at the time, and this is 2006, it, it it was that it was the trigger for us opening up an office here in New Zealand. So, in fact, although we might be 30, as of, you know, the start of next year will be 20 years in New Zealand as of, you know, in a couple months time. So in bringing back, I mean, again, it's an age thing. I mean, you know, a lot of the decisions you make, a big product of where you are in life and a certain age, and the idea of just going off and doing something completely different. I'm 56 now, but the idea of doing that, when you think that your, gosh, you think I'm at the peak right now was it was 40 was at 15 years ago, I don't know, but when at 40, it was like I had still a lot to do and a lot to learn, actually, even being on a public board. So that was a, you know, company listed on the stock exchange. They were turning over about 800 million a year. And it's like, oh, okay, this is a whole other world. And it's funny, you realize as an independent sort of business, you get exposed to these big industries. You think they know better. And corporate absolutely has got it all sorted. And you realise, how dysfunctional is this? is like their idea of IP is slapping a sticker on something. It's like, that's not, creative endeavors. And it's funny that it's a removed from the very substance of what they have created. So we're fortunate that the opportunity, had presented and this is this, this broader business, the, the the second largest toy company in, in Australia and in New Zealand and had, you know, offices here as well, amongst other exercises in apparel and what have you and us. We were fortunate at that point that we were able to put together a, a group and to then privatize the business. Again. So now we're into sort of year 12 of it being privatized. And then since the last 12 years, we sort of halved the business into its natural, two natural Businesses, which was what you guys have all just seen there on that presentation reel. And what you probably mostly know us to be, and our Anime group and, our Anime group at that stage had, like a Comic-Con like touring event where we would have 5 or 6 events a year with, you know, a hundred thousand kids turning out to it. And, that Anime lab that streaming platform and we probably had 35 people dedicated to just that, category. And it's amazing. Now, ten, 12 years on, it's undeniable. It's one of the forces in, in modern entertainment And I think in the last 12 months, it's been three anime titles have been number one of them. The at the box office across the planet. And but we sold the business, to a group called Aniplex in Japan who's ultimately owned by, Sony. And it was the right thing for that business at that point in time. And and it was it was interesting, you know, just to say, you know, I remember, talking to Aniplex at the time, going So how are you going to fund this deal? Because you that's one of the things you ask in any due diligence process. It's great having a deal, but how you going to pay for it. And they said well speak to Treasury. I said, what do you mean? your Treasury? And going oh right. You've got your you have your own bank. You are the bank. Yes. Okay. So you realize on that end of the town it's just the scale of these businesses. Paul, you've had 30 years now to observe the genus independent producer, and I'm wondering what you've learned in that in those 30 years. As in, are they human? What's the expression off news... It's like that farmer expression. We'll just fix it with number eight wire or something like that. Like unbelievably gifted individuals who, are problem solvers, the one the best that the producing. Producers are the most... the best producers we've worked with based, you know, the producers that really ongoing, in their careers and successful in their endeavors are incredibly collaborative and just ultimately fair, you know, and seek simplicity because it's everything you can put together a contract and you can have more and more pages in a contract and more and more deal terms and more and more holdbacks and exceptions and you name it. But it's just it's the intent in which you enter any sort of, arrangement. And, and it's on every side. And the producers we've worked with, that've been most successful. They've been the most, collaborative, right? And it's been that. Just, you know, volunteering the stuff that they don't understand and vice versa, you know? So, yes, they're an amazing group. And I think we put so much time and effort into those producer relationships because they do so much of that heavy lifting to work out where and spending time with the talent and trying to work out where the new opportunities are. So I don't know whether I'm actually answering your question here But it's tough. My God, I can see we've had, investment stakes in a couple of production companies. And one thing I would say is if the producers aren't, sharing in the equity or participating in the actual companies themselves, there's too much sweat equity and, and and all that other stuff that you can never build HR rules around. Frankly, that you just have to be they have to be stakeholders in whatever that enterprise is, I feel, or participating in whatever that project is. they have to have a really meaningful participation beyond some sort of, you know, set fee. Could not agree more. I have one last question, which is you're only 56. Are there any unfulfilled ambitions you have? God it is counselling. Having my own cinema, a seaside town and programing just the films I want to watch. Fabulous. But I reckon not. I mean, that actually, that idea sounds really great but I’d probably get bored out of my brain in some ways, but I think at this stage, the key for even ambitious, like the next stage is making sure we're employing people who've got the same interest and passion, who are representing the, you know, future audiences and the audiences that are turning out to, you know, engage with with cinema and storytelling from, from wherever it is. So it can't be just from, 56 and it's not by, by no means. We have a fantastic team that contribute and are part of the all the decision making process, but just ensuring that we, continue to evolve and bring people in who, representing, you know, the the new face of the, you know, this part of the world and, and Aus. Thank you. Paul. We are out of time, and I really don't want to get between you and lunch. So please join me in congratulating Paul on his first 30 years, and let's wish him another 30. Thank you. David.